September 17, 2008
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Muddles in the Puddles of my mind.
Today, I’m going to throw some questions out there that have been running through my mind for the last couple of weeks, some resulting from discussions I’ve had with friends. I’d greatly appreciate your feedback on them.
Q#1: Do you believe that all sins are equal? If not, why?
Q#2: Do you believe that you cannot change who you are at your core?
Q#3: What is it that dictates who you are?
Q#4: Do you believe that your actions dictate or indicate who you are?
Q#5: What in your opinion, does the scriptures mean when it says that Christ is returning for a church without spot or wrinkle?
Q#6: Do you think it is possible for us to exist on this planet, in the flesh without spot or wrinkle?
Q#7: When scripture refers to someone being “perfect,” what does that mean?
Q#8: Is perfection possible while we are in the flesh?
Q#9: We all have a past and issues that we have struggled with. In growing up in levels in God, do you feel that you become immune to those past struggles? Do you feel that you would never have the same struggles again in the same areas again?
Q#10: Do you think that when people are having an ongoing struggle with a particular area of sin, that due to this area of fallen-ness, they will miss God when He returns?
Q#11: Would your answer above, depend on the area of sin that was the issue? If so, please refer back to Q#1, and give me your revised answer here.
Q#12: Is there a difference between sin and “the works of the flesh?” If so, what is the difference?
Q#13: Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
If a believer is struggling in any of these “works of the flesh,” are they unforgiven, despite the blood of Christ?
Q#14: If sin is sin, why are these “works of the flesh” singled out and, it seems, stated as being beyond salvation?
I’m not advocating this by any means, but those scriptures came up recently in a study at church, and I started wondering. It makes me think that some sins are designated as greater than others the way society dictates, while pastors claim they are all the same, yet the church acts just like society does about them. So if they are all the same, and we all sin and fall short of the glory of God, then why are these specifically mentioned like this?
None of us are good, and we can never be. It’s just like none of us can tell where we will be tomorrow, and which of these sins we may fall into. It really depends largely on our personal history and background, and what we’ve struggled with in the past.
I’ve discovered that you can do well in an area of weakness for several years, get relaxed and think you’ve got this, and then suddenly relapse into something that seems to be the worse variant of your weakness that you’ve ever experienced. In such cases, I wonder how can one be struggling in one area so much, and still represent God in any area, way or fashion. Does the particular sin struggle dictate whether or not someone can still be effective for God?
I’m thinking about the fact that the bible is not just a book of instruction for what’s right versus wrong, but it is also a book of sinners. So when I look at Job, who was a “righteous man” yet still walked in fear; when I look at David, who was God’s beloved, yet still committed several of the sins listed in the above verses; I wonder. Did these guys pass the test of life, despite having fallen in a few of these areas?
If Job’s faith was perfect, despite his fear, then that makes me think that if any one of us falls into any of those arenas of sin based on fear…yet still have perfect faith, would we still miss God?
The only way I can think that Job represented God in that circumstance, is in the fact that he did not waver in his faith, yet he was in complete desolation and destitution. Likewise, David had no communication with God while he committed his sins concerning Bathsheba, yet was able to repent. His sins did not go without consequence, but he was still God’s beloved, so that makes me think that despite his mistakes, he made in into heaven. And think about Paul. Paul struggled with pride. Is that any less than the sins listed? Yet Paul is the one that the church pushes us to follow.
None of us is perfect, so how can any of us, with spot and wrinkle get in the gates? I know the blood covers us, but if I’m reading the above scriptures correctly, that is saying that the blood is not enough, and if we were guilty of any of those listed sins, we still would not make it in. Am I wrong? Just stuff I’m pondering. What’s your opinion? Can you give me any scriptural basis or backup for what you state? Thanks for the feedback.
Comments (12)
Now that is a large group of questions.
Q13: In Gal. 5:21, the word for ‘do’ is combined with the noun, and should be translated as ‘practicers’. The only interpretation that fits with other scriptures is that those are people who continue unrepentantly and habitually, or openly advocate those things. I think that ‘struggling’ would be at the very least someone with a repentant heart, even if the actions aren’t lining up.
Here’s a long answer but there were a lot of questions:
A#1: Yes.
A#2: Depends on what you mean “who you are at your core?”
A#3: It is certainly not what I do because that can change. In one
sense, all we can say is “we are what the Lord meant us to be.”
A#4: No, what we do changes therefore we would change when that
happened and that isn’t true. We know that after its all said and done,
we are still the same.
A#5: Christ is returning for a church that has no spot or wrinkle
because of His blood shed for sin and He has cleansed them. In many
ways, we think we have so much to do with this but He is the one doing
the work in us. He will not fail, no matter what we think about that.
A#6: If the Lord says that that is “so”, then it is. We need to
understand that we need to trust what He has told us. When we don’t, we
do things in our own understanding and that’s what got all this misery
from the “Fall” started in the first place.
A#7: I’ve heard that the word actually means “mature” in many cases but
actually I think it is willingly being in God’s hand as He shapes us to
be conformed to image of His Son, Jesus Christ. When I allow Him to do
His perfect work in me, then according to His wisdom and determination,
I am as “perfect” as I can be at that time regardless of what I think.
Now I must confess I feel very inadequate about this at times but it
isn’t my working but His. I can’t trust me doing it but I can trust Him
to do the right things to bring me to the point of being like His Son
who is perfect like Him.
A#8: That depends on the definition of “perfection”. If Jesus was
perfect when He was here on the earth and we are being made to be
conformed to the image of His Son, it stands that it is theoretically
possible for us to be like Him. Will we actually attain to this? Only
the Lord Himself would know this for sure. I doubt we would know this
for sure ourselves. It is the Lord to whom we give an account. Also, we
will experience the conflict of Paul in Romans 7 so it would seem
unlikely in some ways.
A#9: No, I don’t think so. I think each of us have our battles that are
set before us and we need to be overcomers. This is a term that is
often used concerning His own people. The overcoming seems to be a
constant battle until we enter into our heavenly rest. I have never
known an honest believer who has told me that they have stopped
battling the world, the flesh, and the devil. In fact, I am remembering
a man well into his 80’s that told me once that he thought that when he
got old that the battles would cease but he said that in some ways, it
was not better and sometimes worse than before. Yet this man had my
respect for being a man of God (for real). Given that I figure that
I’ve got to fight the war until my life is over and the Lord takes me
home.
A#10: No. The thing that people get all messed up is that salvation is somehow all or some part of an act of a man’s works.
The genius of God’s plan is that all this is up to Him to save us.
He knows that if we were to “work this out for ourselves”, He would
have no one to come back for. This is the reason why I believe in the
security of the believer and its not due to “sovereignty” or anything
like that. Salvation, justification, and sanctification is God working
in us and He never fails at anything He does. He’s even given His word
on the matter and He never lies. Our salvation, in fact everything we
have in Him, totally rests in Him. If He would fail us (and He cannot)
then He would have never been the God that could have saved us in the
first place (but He is).
A#12: Sin is sin. What people don’t understand about sin is that it
not only is “rebellion against God”, it is also rebellion against
ourselves. Why we choose to continue to return to a particular area of
sin is one of the mysteries that eludes all of us. Yet the Lord
understood the completely helpless situation we had all entered into at
the Fall. This is why in my own pursuit of understanding God’s
character, I have come to know that He is really serious about saving
us and that in order for us to understand the seriousness of sin we
must understand the incredible hold it has on us. When we are finally
made completely free of it, will we not all who have felt sin’s chains
on us bind us so tightly will never want to return to that again? Not
only would the holiness of God keep sin out of the new heaven and new
earth but no one there would allow it either. Something to think about.
A#12: I depends on how you look at it. If we were cleansed from sin by
the blood of the Lamb, then when the works of the flesh came around
then that would be a different thing. However, I don’t think the Word
makes such a fine distinction on this especially with regards to the
passages in I John 1.
A#13: Check out Paul’s struggle in Romans 7 and 8. Carefully note what happens with those who are “in Christ Jesus.”
A#14: Paul struggled with these things and so did John see I John 1:6-10. It has to do with “life practice”.
Answer to last section:
Here the answer from the Lord Himself…
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches
“To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and
I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone
which no one knows but he who receives it.” Revelation 2: 17 (NASB)
Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.
‘He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I
WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD
OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also
have received authority from My Father; and I will give him the morning
star. Revelation 2:25-28 (NASB)
He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and
he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of
My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which
comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. Revelation 3:12
(NASB)
He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Revelation 3:21 (NASB)
Now read what Paul tells us in Romans 8:28-39 and do not stop. Read it
all. Where do we read any of this has anything to do with us doing it
for ourselves? It simply does not tell us that we are responsible for
keeping ourselves justified. Through all of this we overwhelmingly
conquer through Him who loved us.
Yet here is my prayer and I offer it to you.
Lord, I know well that there are things that happened today that came
far short of what you wanted me to do and be. Please forgive me of that
and cleanse me from all unrighteousness and help me to keep up the
fight to overcome and be a faithful witness of your mercy and grace.
Help me to stand before you in righteousness because without You I know
I would fail. Lord, I look forward to the day when all these trials and
troubles will be far behind and my salvation and redemption will be
made totally complete in every way. Thank you, Lord, that you loved me
even though You knew every single day I would struggle with all these
things and would fall many times even in my own eyes and we would get
up again and try again and again … and you loved me then and still you
love me now. What would I do without your faithfulness? Thank you, Lord.
Thank you for your insightful questions and thank the Lord I had a few moments to reflect on them. Blessings, Mr.Vee
@OldmanGordon - I like that answer. I am very specific sometimes because people throw a lot of words around in a general way and sometimes it is out of context and brings condemnation, when the actual context doesn’t. So I definitely appreciate your comment.
@veritas_verbatim - Thank you so much for that. I have read it, but I really want to review it and look up the scriptures before I reply on what you said, so it may be a few days until I get back to you on this. Peace and blessings.
Aye Sis. Sorry it took so long for me to answer. I have to take off my tripping out Pagan self-hat, and put on my SundaySchoolTeacher hat for this one,….
Q#1: Do you believe that all sins are equal? If not, why?
All sin is sin, none bigger or better than the other; although the Bible does speak of abominations in the Old Testament more than in the New Testament (Lev. Chapters 18 and 20).
Q#2: Do you believe that you cannot change who you are at your core?
No, you cannot change who you are at your core nor on your own accord, but only by seeking God and letting Him change you from the inside out.
Q#3: What is it that dictates who you are?
Your actions and deeds dictate who you are. Men cannot judge you, but you are judged by your self from what comes out of you from your speech, language, and behavior.
Q#4: Do you believe that your actions dictate or indicate who you are?
Your actions indicate and dictate who you are, because if you bear good fruit, then it is shown by your actions, but if your bear rotten fruit, then it is shown by your actions also.
Q#5: What in your opinion, does the scriptures mean when it says that Christ is returning for a church without spot or wrinkle?
The term “church” is only mentioned in the New Testament. Bottom line, nobody or no church is perfect. Christ is the only perfect example, and that we should strive daily to be like Him. The Bible never says that we are perfect, but just beautifully and wonderfully made in the likeness of Him, but we as humans are far from perfect, but we must continue to strive for it. It’s the same with the church. If the church is at least striving for perfection by continually serving the community and the world outside of the place of worship building, then THAT’S the church that God is seeking, without spot or wrinkle, just continually striving for perfection.
Q#6: Do you think it is possible for us to exist on this planet, in the flesh without spot or wrinkle?
It’s possible to exist on planet Earth, but our fleshly man should die to our sins daily, if we as Christians want to walk this walk of faith with God. Dying daily means the death of our flesh-man, meaning our sinful ways, and living in our spirit-man through Christ. The things of the flesh are flesh, but the things of the spirit are spirit, which means that we should not be controlled by our fleshly sinful nature, but be controlled and guided by God’s spirit. So either our flesh or our spirit through Christ has to run you in all that you do on a daily, which means that in order to live in His spirit, we must die to our fleshly sinful nature.
Q#7: When scripture refers to someone being “perfect,” what does that mean?
Matt. 5:28 among many other scriptures has God being an example of perfection that we as imperfect humans should follow & strive for. We as humans can never be perfect on our own, but following God, he makes us become more like Him.
Q#8: Is perfection possible while we are in the flesh?
Perfection is not possible in the flesh, which is why we have to operate in God’s spirit, because no good thing dwells in our flesh.
Q#9: We all have a past and issues that we have struggled with. In growing up in levels in God, do you feel that you become immune to those past struggles? Do you feel that you would never have the same struggles again in the same areas again?
None of us is immune to our past and future struggles, to which God’s GRACE comes into operation for us, letting Rom. 5:20 and Rom. 6:1 be our guide when it comes to our sins and God’’ grace.
Q#10: Do you think that when people are having an ongoing struggle with a particular area of sin, that due to this area of fallen-ness, they will miss God when He returns?
These two scriptures should answer that (Heb. 10:26 & Heb. 12:1). We just have to pray and guard ourselves from sinning again and again, with the help of the Lord.
Q#11: Would your answer above, depend on the area of sin that was the issue? If so, please refer back to Q#1, and give me your revised answer here.
All the afore mentioned answers should work for every sin, great or small.
Q#12: Is there a difference between sin and “the works of the flesh?” If so, what is the difference?
Sin and the works of the flesh are the same. Sin is the works of the flesh, and the works of the flesh is sin.
Q#13: Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
If a believer is struggling in any of these “works of the flesh,” are they unforgiven, despite the blood of Christ?
Paul wrote to a number of different churches in the Middle East and abroad. The church in Galatia had issues with people still wrapped up in all of those types of sins. Right after Gal. 5:19-21, the fruits of the spirit in verses 22 & 23 combats all of those works of the flesh. So if a person has ever done any of those bad things before they became a Christian or if they have been a Christian for quite some time but for whatever reason fell off the wagon, then thank God for His grace that they now have an opportunity to get right with God, follow His ways, and incorporate the fruits of the spirit in their new lifestyle with God. Yes, they are forgiven, that’s the whole reason Jesus died on the cross to be the sacrifice for all of our sins for those that believe, raising on the 3rd day to have victory over death, Hell and the grave.
Q#14: If sin is sin, why are these “works of the flesh” singled out and, it seems, stated as being beyond salvation?
Again, those sins were singled out for the Christians in Galatians who struggled with their sins, and it’s not beyond salvation to those who become Christians.
All of this information I shared can be backed up by some ministers and pastors you may know in your area, so I should not be far off the mark in these answers, but by all means, they will say the same thing, but they meay break it down for you even more.
***I wish that I could be like this all of the time, but there’s more to me than meets the eye. I’m not perfect, either (you can tell THAT from the many tripped out posts on my page and my blog), but me knowing all of this stuff is one thing. Applying it to my life is another.
Keep in touch and e-mail me one on one if you have any more questions concerning stuff like this at AppleJacque@Hotmail.com***
@veritas_verbatim - & @Applejacque - I decided to cross address you both, because your answers were in some ways different, and in some ways the same, and I think the differences are interesting.
You both basically agreed on #1-2. AJ went where I was seeking an answer on #3, because I have a friend who believes that there is no point in him praying or seeking God, because of who he is at his core. He says he can’t or won’t change what he’s doing because he likes it. He says he won’t ask for forgiveness because he doesn’t see the point when he knows he’s going to keep sinning because he likes it, despite knowing the wrongness of it, yet in conversing with him, there are things about his past that he has repented of…maybe not in prayer, but my understanding of repentance is a change of mindset, which he has expressed.
His statement threw me a bit because I really didn’t see how to address the “at my core” ideology other than to tell him that God is the one who makes the change, but he feels that this would be a waste of time (to seek God) because he likes the sin he does and doesn’t want to stop. (This is not regarding all things, just some things)
So Mr. Vee, if, as you say, we are all what we are meant to be; which I mentioned predestination to him; then his position would be correct, because he says that some people are meant for God and some are not. He says he hopes that one day he could go to God and be forgiven, but he’s not ready to do so now. He thinks that his past and his deeds would forever bar him from God. He’s quite the realist, and he believes, was saved and baptised, but doesn’t live it daily.
I was struggling to figure out what to say to this, because to have someone tell you that they realize that they are not meant for God or his kingdom…that really threw me for a loop. Thing is…this guy has ministry gifts in him. It’s so evident, but he cannot see it, yet he is attempting to operate in them on a human level.
Trust me, he’s not trying to work his way in…he knows better than that, but he has a natural disposition and compassion for homeless people, and he often invites them to his home to eat, or stay; giving them his own clothes and so forth; doing dinners on the holidays and so forth at his own expense. This is a regular thing for him. Even when he had his own business, he hired them as well. They made up his work force and he treated them with dignity and respect like family.
He believes that doing that sort of thing is what real faith dictates, but he sees no example of this in the church. He says the church will feed people with a catch…they have to attend services first. And they don’t actually do anything to “teach a man to fish,” they just “feed them fish.”
Actually, AJ…your response on this: “Your actions and deeds dictate who you are. Men cannot judge you, but you are judged by your self from what comes out of you from your speech, language, and behavior…” gives me an answer for him, because he’s focused on the negative actions or deeds, and doesn’t see the positive ones as well.
Q#4: Do you believe that your actions dictate or indicate who you are?
“A#4: No, what we do changes therefore we would change when that
happened and that isn’t true. We know that after its all said and done,
we are still the same.” Mr. Vee
“Your actions indicate and dictate who you are, because if you bear good fruit, then it is shown by your actions, but if your bear rotten fruit, then it is shown by your actions also.” AJ
I’m a little confused on your answer on this one Mr. Vee. It sounds like you are saying that it does and it doesn’t. If what we do changes, so it isn’t true, then our core person/character stays the same? So the blood covers us, and the Spirit is supposed to be changing us, but at the heart of it all, we stay the same? How is that? And how does the struggle between the flesh and the spirit, as stated in Romans play into this scenario?
And AJ…what if, as you indicated later in your response, you bear both? If you know the word as you more than adequately showed me here, yet your blog shows another side (almost opposite) of that knowledge, would that not be an example of both fruits as you described here? And…not trying to call you out or put you on the spot, but again, considering the Romans struggle mentioned above, if the fruit has both; in other words, maybe one half of the fruit is good and the other half rotten…then if we were suddenly called home tomorrow, or the trumpet sounded, are we still covered by the blood due to the intent of our heart, and the grace of God, or are we lost? To hear preachers tell it, one slip up, one set back, or one long term struggle with a past temptation and we’re history.
This is where some of my questions have come up…not to justify sin, but we are all going to be tempted, and sometimes we will fall and won’t be able to get back up so quickly. So if the trump sounds during that time…where are we?
I have to go now, but I will come back later to address you guys on the other questions. Peace.
re: Q#3
HSWT:
>So Mr. Vee, if, as you say, we are all what we are meant to be;
which I >mentioned predestination to him; then his position would be
correct, >because he says that some people are meant for God and some are not. He >says he hopes that one day he could go to God and
be forgiven, but he’s not >ready to do so now. He thinks that his
past and his deeds would forever bar >him from God. He’s quite the
realist, and he believes, was saved and >baptised, but doesn’t live it
daily.
Mr.V:
Oh, what I’d give to be able to help people unfuddle the topic of “predestination”!
The proper definition is for those who have become His own (however one
wants to arrive at that for the time being). God has already put in
place a predetermined destiny for those called by His name be blessed
and be conformed to the image of His Son… not that some are destined to
heaven and hell. Although there are folks who hold to the latter, after
careful study I cannot find proper support without all sorts of “holes”
for that unless one is willing to construct other things to hang it off
of and build a “house of cards” that takes all sorts of manipulation to
make it take shape. Its been done but I just have not seen it supported
in an “air-tight” case.
Rather than leave you there with that, let me discuss what I have
discovered about this sort of thing. There are two things in the
scriptures that we often confuse into one. They are both clearly stated
first in Genesis 12:1-3 if you think carefully about what God said to
Abraham. (not in order)
1) The overall plan to redeem mankind
2) His intricate, detailed plan on how He accomplishes #1 (in that case, selecting Abraham)
#1 results in a completely open invitation to all with God’s initiating
and enabling power to save acting through the Spirit to bring the
conviction of sin, the knowledge of the need of repentance to the
sinner, activate the potential to understand the predicament, and
answer those with salvation who, from that wonderful work of God, call
on the name of the Lord.
#2 is not an open invitation and those elements and people involved in
His plan are chosen by His sovereign will to act within that plan for
particular and specific purposes all coordinated to accomplish the main
goal of #1.
Everyone participates in both things, one as an active, potentially
receiving participant in the process of salvation and the other as an
unalterable set of specific life purpose(s) at specific periods of time
to fulfill the work of God’s overall plan. As mentioned, Israel was
chosen for such a purpose. So was Pharoah and Cyrus. So did Christ. And
so are each of us in our circle of friends and acquaintances to serve
Him in the capacity He has made us to fulfill to extend purpose #1 into
today’s world.
Now to address your friend’s situation…
He/she needs to quit trusting his own understanding and thinking that
God cannot forgive him/her. Let’s get something straight. The salvation
of man is God’s primary focus in everything we read in the scriptures.
This is the time to call on His name. He is open to receive any who
have received enough sense to cry out to Him. We don’t get that unless
He grants that and when that understanding happens to us, we need to
act on it. Remember the Father did not allow His Son’s blood to be shed
for just a few recipients, it is adequate to cover the sin of every
person that lives or has ever lived but it is only effective to those who call on His name. The reality of life on this side
of heaven is that we still have to deal with sin on a daily basis but
now its covered, not to sin all we want but to realize that even if we
mess up, its not all over. While this life situation certainly isn’t
optimal, we can also see that the Lord fully understands our
predicament and provides an easy way for us to come clean with him when
we fall down in confession and then let Him cleanse us from all
unrighteousness.
Now as far as I can tell from your testimony of his life and its
outward appearance, his heart has a good chance of being much like the
Lord’s own concerning the compassion for those who are struggling and
in humiliating circumstances. Rather than say that he wasn’t meant for
the Lord, I’d say that they were quite compatible in desire if your
friend is not trying to please God by doing things to merit an “honor
badge” of his own making. If that sort of love for the downtrodden is
the real and honest thing, he should take heart that the scriptures
tell us that the Lord loves those who do these things. Please encourage
him/her for me to continue. Have them read Isaiah 58 and note what the Lord is pleased with… So now tell me again that he/she “doesn’t
live it daily”? I guess I don’t understand. If he/she is doing what God
has given him/her to do for mercy’s sake, where is there something to
find fault in even if there are “rest breaks” in between? That same
thing happens with me and everyone I know as well. The Lord knows we’d
wear out if we didn’t get a break now and then.
re: he sees no example of that sort of thing being done in the church…
My goodness! There is much to do out there and not everyone is gifted
to do what he/she is doing. Your friend should not expect everyone to
do what they are doing because of the gifting they have received from
the Lord. Tell them to be happy in the thing the Lord has given them
and be faithful with it so that they are fulfilling that part of the
big picture and being an example so that others will feel comfortable
to follow as the Lord directs.
Now he/she should be careful not to be haughty about the gifting they
have if others don’t have it… all gifts that the Holy Spirit grants are
granted selectively and others do not get to choose the same gift by
their own will. The best course to take is encourage others to
discover what God has called them to do and then find the joy He gives
when they are doing what the Lord had designed them so perfectly to do.
Q#4: Do you believe that your actions dictate or indicate who you are?
“A#4: No, what we do changes therefore we would change when that
happened and that isn’t true. We know that after its all said and
done,we are still the same.” Mr. Vee
HSWT:
>I’m a little confused on your answer on this one Mr. Vee. It sounds like you
>are saying that it does and it doesn’t. If what we do changes, so it isn’t true,
>then our core person/character stays the same? So the blood covers us,
>and the Spirit is supposed to be changing us, but at the heart of it all, we
>stay the same? How is that? And how does the struggle between the flesh
>and the spirit, as stated in Romans play into this scenario?
Mr.V:
I guess I’m confused here, too. Your response doesn’t seem to
correspond with what you asked. Perhaps I didn’t understand the
question correctly.
Succinctly…. “what we do” is not “who we are”. Spend some time thinking
about that and why that must be true. If you are still stumped, we can
certainly talk about it more. It took a while for me to “get it” and I
had to go through some things in my life to discover the truth in that.
If anything is true, we’ve all seen folks who played a pretty good game
at “being a Christian” and then we find out later that it was all a
scam and their own “self delusion”.So actions are not always reliable indicators of who we really are.
The rest of your response refers to God’s working in and on us, not our
actions. We are made “new creatures” but the fact is that the old still
remains in there that we must struggle with since the Spirit now
resides in us. There will be realities that come from that that bear
testimony that we are the children of God. Remember that God “redeems”
us. He does not “rebuild us” if you get my drift on this. He resurrects
us from the dominion of death and raises us in newness of life… taking
what was lost and making it good and whole again. He takes what and who
we are and starting with who and what we are and then conforms us to
the image of His Son… without fail… without losing “who we are” in
the process.
There is so much to write here as I sense this is a really important
topic not only to you but to a lot of people. I know I’m not covering
this as much it needs but that’s all the time I have right now.
Blessings, Mr.Vee
@veritas_verbatim - Re: “Please encourage
him/her for me to continue. Have them read Isaiah 58 and note what the Lord is pleased with… So now tell me again that he/she “doesn’t
live it daily”? I guess I don’t understand. If he/she is doing what God
has given him/her to do for mercy’s sake, where is there something to
find fault in even if there are “rest breaks” in between? That same
thing happens with me and everyone I know as well. The Lord knows we’d
wear out if we didn’t get a break now and then.”
Well…on this note, my friend may be living that situation at times, but the reference was not to not living that…but to sin in other areas. To clarify, my pastor last night mentioned a scripture in Matthew…maybe 23:27 (don’t quote me on that), that says to love God with all your heart, and soul, and in Mark and Luke, it adds strength. He then defined heart as the core of your being; soul as the seat of your emotions; and strength as willing obedience in areas where you don’t want to obey.
After that, he mentioned that we must be wary of doing this so that we don’t get “disqualified.” That word bothers me, because to hear pastors tell it, our salvation is a shaky thing based on how well we behave, as opposed to God’s grace. In other words (even TBN presented a program on death and ressurection experiences that this was indicated), we can lose our salvation because of sin, even if we still believe and even if we are willing to obey, but have difficulty doing so; in other words, are conscious of our sins.
This idea raises questions for me, because I thought that Jesus’ sacrifice was supposed to cover my sins-past, present and future. If my failures and weaknesses and my ability to slip and fall in the mud several times can “disqualify” me, then it almost seems that it is by “works” of obedience, that I “qualify” for salvation, as opposed to it being the gift of God by grace, because if I can’t hold on to it if I fall…then what salvation for me really exists?
I’m in the flesh. I’m going to fall, and there are many areas of temptation for me to hit ground level on. I’m not shopping for sin as if there is a bluelight special, but at the same time, I could inadvertently, due to areas of personal struggle, be a repeat customer for quite some time…even after leaving it initially.
I could be doing compassionate works, but at the same time, I could be in sin at the other end of my life. Basically, it’s a juggling act. The enemy knows exactly what will tempt me, and I can’t sit here and tell you that I’m so spiritually strong that I can always resist.
So if my faith is not even as large as a grain of mustard seed…if I only have half of that faith in a particular area, and I fall…it seems that the church deems that as “game over,” especially in regards to the “works of sin” earlier mentioned in my post. If sin is sin, why is that specified, and why are we being told that we’d be “disqualified?”
Now especially, because of the elections, the signs, and the changing economic situation, pastors are hammering us with the idea that we can be “disqualified” and miss the coming of the Lord due to “certain” sins, but not others. Some are just tossing the “disqualified” word around as a means, it seems, of crowd control. They keep mentioning “weeping and gnashing of teeth,” and seemingly indicating that due to the above mentioned “disqualifications,” there will be believers left behind.
So if I love God with all my heart, but I don’t have the strength to overcome things in the soul arena…am I disqualified? This is where I see my friend’s thoughts at indirectly, and I actually have been questioning this for myself as well, because emotions are a strong force to be reckoned with, and some things, situations and people are very difficult to let go.
If the battle arena is in the soul region, and this region of weakness causes one to fall into any of the listed “works of sin,” then according to the church, they become “disqualified.” If that is the case…there’s no hope for a lot of us, because I myself struggle with the soul arena a lot. Someone once mentioned that if a christian was caught in a sin “indefinitely,” then that person felt that the christian had “fallen away.”
I question this too, because what one person considers to be “indefinitely,” or even a long time, can be nothing or something in the eyes of God. It sounds like a case of judgment to me, (as in church folk doling out timeframes for people to extract themselves from a situation/sin and then proceeding with labeling if they don’t meet the deadline), which is why I am very hesitant about going to ministers in the church to deal with any personal issues I may have, aside from the fact that lack of privacy is a moot point.
When people say to give it to God and wait on Him, I find it difficult to think that God would not understand someone’s inability, within finite time, and with less than a grain of mustard seed faith in a particular area; to wait on an answer from within infinite time. Even if the person had the faith for a long time waiting on their answer, then lost hope…I don’t see how God could not understand that within the confines of the time issue.
On this: “Remember that God “redeems” us. He does not “rebuild us” if you get my drift on this. He resurrects us from the dominion of death and raises us in newness of life… taking what was lost and making it good and whole again. He takes what and who we are and starting with who and what we are and then conforms us to the image of His Son… without fail… without losing “who we are” in the process.”
I actually loved this answer, but I’m going to approach it from a different side of the field. I think my friend’s thought pattern is this: If who and what I am is a sinner…then what you said about “without losing “who we are” will hold more weight. I will always be a sinner, and I know I can’t live up to the “expectations of the church (folk).” One of his comments was that he didn’t like going to churches because he didn’t feel he was truly welcomed, considering his viewpoint on certain things. I can kind of understand that sentiment.
I have one gf that upon finding out something that happened in my life, took up a position of judgment due to the nature of the issue. She has continued to berate me, and judge me…and this is a sister in the Lord I’ve been friends with for 20+ years, who’s not in the straightest boat herself, but yet…she cast aspersions on me.
After she crossed the line in her comments, and I have not called her, she called me yesterday to tell me that she crossed the line. When I agreed with her, stating simply, “You did,” she then told me not to annoy her, because the conversation could be over if that’s what I wanted. I told her, “As you wish,” and she hung up. So even in an alleged apology for her self righteous judgment against me, she was still judging me. This, in my opinion is the attitude in general of the church, and the reason why my friend feels so uncomfortable with the idea of attending a church.
My other gf’s position is that of complete understanding of my situation and the emotional difficulty of it. She prays for me and encourages me, but she has not once judged me, and she respects my privacy. If only all christians could be like this.
Anyways, I gotta go. The youngun’ is sick at school, so I will have to get back to answering you and AJ on the other questions later. Peace and blessings.
There is so much to say here, HSWT.
However, almost all of it can be answered by a simple thought…
Our salvation is wholly and entirely dependent on the good and righteous character of God. Any other way is futility.
If the salvation we consider ours can be lost in some way or another,
then the one who provides the salvation is insufficient to have offered
it in the first place and in not God or the so-called salvation is one
created in the mind of man who has no power to save himself in the
first place.
re: what other people think, what the church thinks
I think the best advice to offer about what the church thinks is to
read your Bible more often than you listen to them. There is a lot of
good that one can receive from brothers and sisters in Christ but there
is a limit to that and at those times, only the Word of God and
meditating on what it says will do.
So I would not churn much more on this. It would seem the defining
matter on this is not whether we stray oft and again but what we want
to be totally committed to it. If there is still an internal conflict
and a desire to please God, then we are not yet given over to those
things. We have to fight the good fight and keep the faith. We must
understand that “overcoming” is a struggle and sometimes we lose many
battles but we don’t lose the war.
I know that I have to fight hard at it so I’m no different. As I’ve
gotten older, the years of being manipulated to fall into the sins that
so easily besets is getting rather old. So, yes, it still happens but
frankly, I find myself becoming, each year, a little more ready to be
“on the other side of these things” and perhaps that’s just the way it
gets after you get well on past life’s usual midpoint.
I remember sitting in a Bible study with a pastor, getting feeble and
in his 80’s at that time. He seemed to all of us that he was a really
godly old man. Someone asked him if life got any easier as he got older
because it looked like he had gotten victory over the things in life
and it seemed like he was becoming a lot like we all had imagined it
would be as we got closer to going home to the Lord. His response
shocked us all. He said that he struggled more at that point than he
ever had and that he was more than ever ready to be with His Lord. He
said he wanted to be free of it all. Now we all understood what he
meant. He didn’t want to end it all. That would be wrong. However, over
time even the things that lure us the most becomes disgusting and
uninviting even though they still happen.
That’s what I mean when I say we must overcome… it may be that we need
to fight to keep the faith until the end… never giving up and never
allowing ourselves to become continually consumed by a depraved mind
and spirit like those who do not know God nor want to entertain any
thought about Him. And most of all, never giving up on God’s mercy and
grace and willingness to forgive us and His promise to conform us to
the image of His Son in spite of it all.
Its getting late and I’ll close with that… Blessings, Mr.Vee
@veritas_verbatim - Thanks again for your response. It was indeed helpful, but again…I have a response.
“Succinctly…. “what we do” is not “who we are”. Spend some time thinking
about that and why that must be true. If you are still stumped, we can
certainly talk about it more. It took a while for me to “get it” and I
had to go through some things in my life to discover the truth in that.”
What comes to mind here is Rom 8 and the struggle of the flesh and the spirit. “What I do is not what I want to do, but that which I don’t want to do.”
So if I hear you correctly, I could be struggling with this forever…until He returns, but as long as I’m still actually fighting to do His will in my life, and walk with Him, I am still in the faith. Ok. So then what does Heb 10:26 mean in your understanding? How does it apply to what we have been discussing?
You said God redeems us, He doesn’t rebuild us. That scripture sounds like it’s saying that we’ve lost our salvation if we end up in sin after having knowledge about it.
My battle is in the soul arena. Soul battles tend to be octoparian (my word) in nature, meaning, they have tentacles and can be deep, far-reaching and with a death grip. I personally believe that the blood covers my sins, past, present and future, but Heb 10:26 says differently as far as I understand it.
I loved this: “Our salvation is wholly and entirely dependent on the good and righteous character of God. Any other way is futility.
If the salvation we consider ours can be lost in some way or another,
then the one who provides the salvation is insufficient to have offered
it in the first place and is not God, or the so-called salvation is one
created in the mind of man who has no power to save himself in the
first place.
Quite frankly, the only thing I have the power to do is fall short…thanks to Adam, so God would have to have mercy on me indefinitely in order for me to make it in.
Peace.
Aye Sis,
I wrote back to you in your messages here. Get at me when you can, OK?
HSWT…
I want to apologize in advance that I have gotten really busy this week
on work stuff and I’d like to write for hours explaining things here
but I honestly don’t have the time. So I guess brief explanations are
going to have to do… well, maybe not so brief after all.
As long as we are here on this earth, the Spirit will war with the
flesh and vice versa… see Galatians 5:16-17 and Romans 7:14-25… and
don’t forget to add Romans 8:1 in light of that. Also, consider that
John was writing to Christians in I John 1 and he discusses our need
for confessing our sins and admitting them to be cleansed from all
unrighteousness. All that shouts out that our struggle with the flesh,
the world, and the Enemy is real and we need to “overcome” in His power
and His might… and not to forget His mercy and grace knowing what our
real problem is and how hard we struggle with all that. That
“overcoming” can only be achieved when we understand deep within
ourselves that He is really “for” and not against us. He wants us to
succeed. If He didn’t want to forgive us, He wouldn’t have sent Christ
on our behalf. We must realize the deep, deep affection He has for His
own… and that means you as well… that He is not aloof and distant but
ever near us and ready to help when we cry out to Him. We really need
to understand the depths of His love for us. If we can even fathom how
much the Father loves the Son, then remember that we are the beloved in
the Beloved and both with the Spirit dwells intimately within us. How
would He not know when we fail and cry within ourselves that we didn’t
do as well as we had hoped… yet once again. How hard would it be to be
an “overcomer” if we knew that He wasn’t so thrilled about us being
His? I don’t know how you feel about this but there is something about
His deep commitment toward me and my situation, His willingness to save
me knowing how often I would fail and that doesn’t make any difference
to Him. He keeps saying to get back up and dust myself off and “let’s
try it again”. That in itself, makes me want to keep going. If He’s
going to believe in me like that knowing His power in me will
eventually get everything set aright, then I am encouraged and will
continue to keep walking in Him.
So the struggle is on but it is not forever… just in this life… as long
as we have to deal with the flesh. Romans 6 tells us that we are not
slaves to sin any more but what it does say is that we need to choose
to do righteousness now… because we now can do that when we simply
couldn’t before our salvation.
Concerning Hebrews 10:26, I don’t think it even applies here. The
reason is that the context, local and overall, is not speaking about
what you are talking about. Yet it brings up a good point that if we
will not trust that Christ has truly covered our sins past, present,
and future with His blood (all of them) then… not in truth but in our
own minds only… we would be left in the hopeless state that the Muslims
(who have done just that) are in now. If you read their book, that’s
all it talks about… the “fearful judgment” and asserting that there is
no way to know if God even loves you anymore or even cares… and
probably doesn’t. The author of Hebrews is warning the Hebrews that
there is no other way but Christ and if one abandons that, they will
have nothing left to hope in but abject fear of God’s judgment. Yet
this wouldn’t be living in the truth of what happens when Christ’s
blood is applied to our sin. It would a hell of our own making and such
a needless exercise of hopelessness. That scripture is so misused….
often for all the wrong reasons.
God redeems us, He doesn’t rebuild us… in this life… but He does a
conforming work in us to the image of Christ (clarification). We will
be changed someday and the flesh, etc., will not trouble us again. Yet
we aren’t there yet. We have to “die daily” to ourselves… it is the
reason Paul says “To live is Christ, to die is gain.”
That’s why salvation must be dependent solely, wholly, and entirely on
the good and righteous character of God. In Ephesians 1, it pleased God
to provide this salvation for us. It says He even lavished it (and more) upon us.
Every time I get down about things I try to remember that word
“lavish”. He spared nothing to bless us in Christ. He did that knowing
all along, every time without fail, from eternity past that we all
would “miss the mark” so often. That’s why it took Christ’s blood to
cover it all. It was impossible any other way. What a God and Savior
we have! Praise Him!
That’s why I say… the best thing we can learn about spiritual things is
to know God and His revealed character… then learn the rest. So many
mistaken notions can be avoided and our relationship to Him will grow
much better. Blessings, Mr.Vee
@veritas_verbatim - Thank you for taking the time to answer me on this subject, because the condemnation of some can cause a world of hurt, and self-inflicted guilt can cause one to be overwelmed, instead of being able to overcome. Just knowing that, as you said, Christ desired to “lavish” us with his love, knowing that we’d fall short on an almost continual basis; is very encouraging.
The reference you made to confession is only ok with me with God, himself, and not with other christians, for the reason you stated concerning the reference of Heb. 10:26. Someone explained to me that many of the letters that makeup the new testament, were written to specific problems that those particular churches were having.
However, I think that many take those scriptures out of context, in the manner in which they react to the sins listed, placing some as more offensive than others. They may be attempting to be encouraging & sympathetic, but they always end up being judgmental. So my tendency is to stick with confessions to God only. Thanks again for your encouraging words. Peace and blessings.