Yeah…I was a bit incensed on that last post. Yall will have to forgive me. It happens once in a while. But you know….I’m so sick and tired of being told that I’m a second class citizen because I’m a woman. I’ve heard that from the church all my life, and I’m just tired of it. We are constantly told that God made the man first. Well…He formed the man first, so that’s a reference to his earthly body, not his spirit, which definitely supports why I have to keep hearing this nonsense from men in the church.

And for the record, there’s a distinct difference between “formed” and “created.” Look it up. We were made between 2 different days. Yeah, I know…it will blow the theology of some, but again, look it up. It’s right there in scripture. I’m currently writing about it in my second book, while I’m trying to get the first one published.

Meanwhile, a guy from http://yes2marriage.org/ came to our church last night. He only confirmed my thoughts on this. He said that marriage was the first institution that God ordained. If that is the case, and I know this is true, how could women be discluded? How could we be second class citizens? Only via the fall, but prior to it, no. Now the church, instead of teaching the complete restoration as it was in the beginning, is teaching post fall theology, which makes Christ’s sacrifice in vain. I wish I could explain it all to you, but this is why I’m writing the book…because it is too much for this forum.

However, I want to address a few comments and feedback I got from the previous post.

“We are all supposed to be equals in Christ (like you said), then how come men are the only ones who can lead? But now I see it is one of those things specific to the time. Paul was writing as Paul, and therefore as he believed from the mentality of the day, right? Or did I miss understand that. Because I have always felt, when people say there are things women shouldn’t do because the bible says so, that it wasn’t right. We are supposed to treat everyone as equals, not in a tiered system like men then a bit lower women then a bit lower a different race.”

This is my issue. I’m sorry but I don’t believe that God divides, and this issue has caused division in the church. Some people including pastors say that Paul was speaking as the Lord, but I have to question that, like I said previously, because the Lord does not struggle with sin, and Paul did. Aside from that, I can see clearly in scripture God’s plan to restore us…not to the fallen condition with the disciplinary action intact, such as was after the fall, but to pre-fall conditions.

In those conditions, there was no one higher than the other. They were equal. They had different responsibilities and their authority came from that difference, but one was not higher than the other, and they were equally submissive to each other. Why? Because that is part of the marriage covenant God introduced to the world. He patterns us after Himself. Why would He set it up like that in the beginning, with equality, then turn around later and contradict Himself? That is not the pattern of God.

There is no one who can convince me that God would contradict Himself in that manner. Jesus did not say anything like that. He did not come to restore only one sex and leave the other subjegated. No, grace is not about that, but what I keep getting told is that although we are under grace, we are still subject to the law. Not so. The law is only fulfilled by walking in His grace, therefore we cannot be subject to it, but must be willing to submit by grace. There’s a difference between telling me I am required to do something, mandated; versus allowing me to make the decision to do it myself.

Ok…so let me address this:

“Quote: “When we walk in His grace, we would automatically have a tendency towards civil obedience as well as spiritual.”

You asked so please see what I’m about to say as voicing my opinion and not as an attack.

I think the above quote is one of the biggest liess of Satan there is. Just because we are walking in with the Father does not mean our tendencies have changed, Now our actions should show a change because we are “forcing” our selves to do that which is not natural… to be that which is Holy.

Our natural tendency is to always be sinful- we are fallen creatures and the only thing new about us is we now have the Holy Spirit in us to help us desire to change that.

There is always a verse that is misused to create this idea and this one comes from 2nd Corinthians 5:17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

The whole “New Creature” theory-sounds so simple… but if you read the Whole passage, it is talking about a mind set- a way of viewing the world around us and that part has changed.”

First of all, I did not see this as an attack. I agree that it is not natural for us to walk with grace, which is why I said “His grace,” not ours. If we are walking in our own strength, no matter how self-righteous we may believe ourselves to be, we are not, and we will fall short.

The “New Creature” theory that you brought up, to me reflects a newness in thought, thus a newness in being and action. In other words, it’s not a magic trick, and certainly, doesn’t happen overnight, but for me, that newness dirives from having and continually obtaining greater amounts of His faith. Therefore, I would become a new or different person. Is it easy? By no means. Are we completely changed in that moment? Only in the light of a new developing walk with Him, which, if we persist in it, it will become an outward reflection as well as an inward one.

In order to achieve this, we have to learn to take His faith. We cannot do anything in our own faith, and trust me…I’m coming to an even newer understanding of this ideology as we speak.

What you quoted here:

“Romans 7:18-19″ 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.”
 

This is what I was saying concerning Paul. How can this man be speaking “as God,” and having a struggle like this? Then he cannot be speaking “as God,” because God doesn’t have these issues, but the church would have us believe that this is so. And why is it that the church puts Paul in the position as speaking “as God,” and no one else?

Is anyone going to tell me that Paul was more ordained, or special than any other prophet or apostle? What about John the revelator, who told us of what is to come? How come he doesn’t get this distinction? How come the prophets don’t get it? Did Moses, the bringer of the law speak “as God?” No. The only person who actually spoke “as God,” is Jesus, because He is God. Therefore, why should I hold Paul’s writings up on any higher pedestal than Jesus, Himself? This is why I don’t. I see men in the church supporting Paul’s teachings more highly than Christ’s, and it looks agenda-oriented.

When I can’t see where some things Paul said line up with the plan of God as illustrated throughout scripture, then I must question it. Am I saying that I don’t think Paul was inspired by God? No. What I am saying, is that Paul was a man with sin issues just as much as the rest of us…apostle or not. I am saying that Paul was not speaking “as God,” but was inspired by God in much of what he said. I don’t, however, believe that scriptures like you quoted in Romans supports the ideology that Paul spoke as God, because then that would mean that God is not only divided, but is flesh, and I know that is not the truth.

“So why am I making such a deal out of this point?
This is the whole bases of the what your friend was talking about- we have the law to teach us what sin is- if we did not have it, we’d have no clue we were doing it.

Because of what God has done in the lives of those in the past with the Law we see that there is no way that we can live up to that standard perfectly on our own.

Thus we have Christ – he came to do what we could not do on our own. BUT>>>Our freedom in Jesus is NOT  freedom to forget the law- it is freedom from having to suffer because would could not keep the law perfectly on our own.”

Let me take this on another track. Without darkness, would we know light exists? When people ask why evil exists in the world…this is why. How would we know we were in light, if we had nothing to compare it with? And would we freely choose God in that scenario, when there is no other choice? This is why the fall had too occur.

It’s just like a tree. I explained this to my son the other day. How does a tree grow? The seed is planted and then what happens? The roots start to grow first. The roots must struggle…must push down against the earth. There must be a negative in order for us to see the positive. The roots grow down, and grab hold in the earth, and then we see the tree springing up. That is how it is here in this dimension. Even buildings must have a foundation that goes down first, before the building can go up, otherwise, the slightest wind would bowl it over.

Am I saying that we don’t need the law? Heck no. There are people out there that want to be lawless, and without law…there is total anarchy, because everyone will do what they perceive in themselves to be right…for themselves, without concern nor consideration for others. That is the nature of fallen man. What I am saying, is that the church focuses on, and teaches law above grace. If the ideology of grace and the concept of it were truly understood and taught in the church, then they would not have to preach the law at people the way they do.

If we walk in His faith, and by His grace, then we will conform to what His requirements of us are, and live with consideration of others before ourselves. This is the principle of grace, which does not require anyone to be forced, manipulated or told to submit. It is a process of free will, just like God wants us to love Him. It was so in the beginning, before the fall. It is this, that God sent Jesus to restore. When we live in Him, walking in His faith, and His grace, then and only then, do we usher in the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth. But we can never even strive to achieve that, when all we are taught is law. Even if we move from teaching “Old” law, to teaching “New” law, it is still teaching law and not grace. That was my point.

“It’s like if you ran a red light – got stopped and got ticketed but you had no money to pay for it and Jesus comes along a pays for it for you. Should we forget about all red lights now just because He paid for ticket? “Oh, I can run as many red lights as I want now because Jesus will always be there to pay for my ticket”  Now there’s a sinful, not to mention dangerous attitude!  Rush hour would become night- mere! Should we forget God’s law just because Jesus paid the “Ticket” for that too? No! our lives would become a night-mere. That is also  a sinful, not to mention dangerous attitude!

We don’t need to kill sheep anymore – that ticket was all paid for- Jesus paid the whole ticket not just part- but as for “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and loving your neighbor as your self” that is the sum of the law and that we should do – if for no other reason then out of respect for the one who paid your “Ticket.”

What you are referring to with this ticket scenario, is a person walking outside of His faith, and in their own. I also know this for a fact because I have upon occassion, taken God for granted in this manner, and had to repent for it. But again, I’m speaking of walking in His faith and His grace, not our own. We only fall into this attitude and/or scenario when we forget God, even for a moment. Whenever we think so much of ourselves that we can do or handle whatever a situation may bring…we take Him for granted. So rest assured, I am not speaking of that. I absolutely agree that we must respect Him. I also agree that there must be a standard to follow, but what I disagree with, is the total focus on law and forced submission, versus teaching about grace and having a willing heart to submit…for all, not just one class of people, or race of people, but all. 

“As for women not speaking in church- if men lived by the Lord’s ways and not abuse their positions then women would not feel the need to do it for them. But we live in a wicked world and the Lord will use what ever means He deems necessary to get His will accomplished.

 AND…
 By the same token if women did what was respectful, Paul would not have had to say to some blabber mouths to pipe done or not go on & on while sharing, when he was trying to teach. How many times has that same thing came up in a Bible study or Sunday school class today?”

Agreed. This is also my point. You don’t put down or step on another to lift yourself up. So not cool. If men lived by the Lord’s ways and did not abuse their positions, they would not need to constantly subjegate women, because no one would be rising to challenge the abuse. If men lived and walked by His faith and His grace…this conversation wouldn’t even be necessary. This is what I’m saying needs to be changed in the church. It must start with teaching men to truly walk in grace, and to submit to the women…their wives also, because scripture calls for husbands to love their wives like Christ loved the church. Christ submitted unto death, and died for the church. What’s up with the men of God, and why can’t they comprehend this matter? 

God set up this beautiful love story in the garden. Satan came in there and caused division with the husband and wife. Here we are, saved and believing yet none of the men can walk by His faith and His grace? And we are supposed to follow them? Surely you can see why I have issue with that. I’m not opposed to following my husband. As a matter of fact…I’d follow him to the ends of the earth (hopefully I won’t have to prove that statement), but my point is, I’m more than willing to follow my husband when the time comes. But is he willing to truly follow Christ? Are the men in the church really willing to walk in His faith and His grace, because if not…why should I or any woman be willing to submit and follow them? Peace.